2011-12-05

Risk vs Reward of keeping Moh Ki guardzoned | 12-05-2011 11:01 PM













  1. #1

    Villein

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     Risk vs Reward of keeping Moh Ki guardzoned

    So, I've noticed that a few people (including me) are getting annoyed with Moh Ki's guardzone. 9 times out of 10, it causes more harm than good (blue blocking, griefers, known thieves, etc...)

    In my own opinion, the best option would to be having the guild completely focused on getting our palisades up and running so we can successfully live out of them, using Moh Ki as little as possible.

    Disabling the guardzone of Moh Ki would be a big step in promoting this.



    Sure, sometimes, there might be a zerg or something that will come to Moh Ki and kill anyone in it, but that wont be much of a worry if we can live successfully out of the palisade, only going to Moh Ki when it's absolutely needed. This also means we can kill any known griefers, attackers wont be able to blue block, and the overall quality of our fighters (might/probably will) will go up (due to increased exposure to fighting and lack of a crutch to lean on while fighting).


    The only true negative I can see us having with having the Moh Ki Guardzone turned off is that newbies who come to visit and spend a lot of time in town wont be as safe (we could invite them to come behind moh ki... there are a lot of useful spawns back there, we can butcher back there/in side our palisades). That, and it would be a tiny bit harder to make money from butchery, as you wont be right next to the vendor anymore (you would have to drag all your butchered materials in to town).



    Anyways, I'm bored while mining so I thought it might be an interesting discussion to open up.
    Last edited by Apoca Ailen; 12-05-2011 at 11:07 PM.

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  2. 12-05-2011 11:09 PM#2

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    I like this idea, but I don't think it can work until these following two issues get resolved:

    1.) Ability to open gate for guild members
    2.)Vendor in the palisades that can buy mats

    Until then we're stuck with what we got.




           




  3. 12-05-2011 11:22 PM#3
    Villein

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     Originally Posted by Philip Southwold
    I like this idea, but I don't think it can work until these following two issues get resolved:

    1.) Ability to open gate for guild members
    2.)Vendor in the palisades that can buy mats

    Until then we're stuck with what we got.
    Right now I think the ownership of the gate is on the community-account that a lot of people have access too, so it's usually not that hard to find someone who can open it.

    We should discuss a way to successfully have someone with access to open the gate (whether it be people having a key to open/close the gate as long as they keep the key inside the palisade or w/e else we can come up with) at almost all times.

    It could be possible to butcher inside the palisade, and then make regular (escorted) trips to Moh Ki, having a scout go inside town and checking around the front to see if anyone not welcome is around.

    It might also help with we take a more communal-approach to resource gathering and crafting. I'm pretty sure we have the means to mine and produce steel self-sufficiently. We also have a lot of butchers with the ability to get platescale, and we know of an execellent place to get lots of plate scale quite easily. We've also gotten better at farming the spider queen lately (well, we've killed it three or four times in the past week or so, anyways).

    If we were to work together and provide all these resources to the guild crafters for free, it would mean we could outfit our fighters for free, as well. Also, possibly sell to other guilds to make money we need to purchase stuff for guild members (Arrows, bandages, portable crushers, house deeds, etc...)

    Right now, I would have no problem giving away all my granum that my miner gets for free, but I still have to pay for my armor and such, which takes a lot of money. Though I guess that's a completely different topic of discussion e_e

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  4. 12-06-2011 04:30 AM#4

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    But if we own the town won't we have the option to grey flag certain individuals?

    I mentioned this idea last night as well. It's interesting and frankly the GZ is a crutch for us.

    Prehaps it will work out better when we can add players to the gate who can get access. (Is this coming soon?)

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  5. 12-06-2011 04:48 AM#5

    Villein
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    Bad idea imo! So where will the weaker, non-fighting blues/newbs go? Life behind Moh-Ki and without a guardzone will only make it all harder for them..
    As Philip said, we don't always have someone to open up the gates.. I've tried several times without success, and then I don't want to nagg someone to open it up, so I just let it go..

    Do we really wan't to send out a message to the newbs that we are running a lawless town, because if we can't defend it, it will be.

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  6. 12-06-2011 05:09 AM#6
    Villein

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     Originally Posted by Faldir Hrothmund
    Bad idea imo! So where will the weaker, non-fighting blues/newbs go? Life behind Moh-Ki and without a guardzone will only make it all harder for them..
    As Philip said, we don't always have someone to open up the gates.. I've tried several times without success, and then I don't want to nagg someone to open it up, so I just let it go..

    Do we really wan't to send out a message to the newbs that we are running a lawless town, because if we can't defend it, it will be.

    If people want to, they have proven that they can disrupt the town just as much, or worse, as if it had no guard zone. Griefers/thieves often spend a lot of time in Moh Ki. When reds want to, they zerg just outside the gate and shoot anyone (or any horse) they can see, employing blue blocking tactics to grief anyone who tried to defend against them.



    But yeah, I get what you're saying. The guard zone works at keeping (I'm guessing) a lot of (red) griefers at bay.


    Until we can figure out how to effectively make the palisade available to our members at (near) all times, it wont be an effective strategy.


    But keep in mind that as we fight more, more of our fighters will spend time as red. Also keep in mind that almost all deaths at a guardzone fight (on our side) are caused by blue blockers turning us grey and then guarding and looting us faster than our own guys can.


    We need to get our palisade up to speed and make a real effort in becoming self-sufficient in it, as best we can, anyways. (And I know me just saying this doesn't help anything.)

    Right now, it's a cycle for everyone in Wessex (at least for me). You farm bears/springbok and/or mine, butcher and sell loot or sell the granum/calx. Then you buy gear from Nihilanth/Malathion (or sometimes GOB). Then you go out and fight, lose it, often because of reds attacking Moh Ki, effectively using the guard zone against us, or because they severely outnumber us and we attack anyways. Then we repeat the process, over and over. All the while having this crutch that hinders our progression (in terms of fighting strength.)

    A lot of our fighters 'grow up' having the blue 'guardian' at our back (myself included) and you don't realize how much it hinders your abilities as a fighter until you're put in a position where it's not an option (like being a red player). And as a red player, which my characters often go (I see no in red for my mage :/) I am frequently completely hindered from making any money unless I go through other players for all my trades. I can't make money with my butcher. This isn't a problem for me anymore, for the most part, as my butcher spends most of his time in the junlge and I have a second account with a fully-skilled miner. But I don't plan to keep both my accounts active for long, at least not until the AI patch goes thru, so I'll decide which to keep active in the coming days. Anyways, again, another discussion for another time :P


    What I'm trying to say is, we can't seem to get over the idea that we can't survive without the guard zone, and to me, that feels like it hinders us more than helps us (or any newbies/blue players that seek our protection).

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  7. 12-06-2011 05:31 AM#7

    Villein
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     Originally Posted by Apoca Ailen
    What I'm trying to say is, we can't seem to get over the idea that we can't survive without the guard zone, and to me, that feels like it hinders us more than helps us (or any newbies/blue players that seek our protection).
    I think we as a whole can survive without a guard zone, I really do.. But Im still thinking about the newbs, not us! What's the best for them.. Where will they go?

    On the good side, this will enforce you to fight, and this will make our fighters stronger, fearless etc..
    Last edited by Faldir Hrothmund; 12-06-2011 at 05:38 AM.


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  8. 12-06-2011 05:50 AM#8

    Villein
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    To the exlusive living inside the pallisades:

    - We need to be seen in Moh Ki, to not let our town die off, because the traffic there was everytime kinda low, but our presence made other ppl stay there.

    - In the case that not everyone got a key for the pallisades, there will be the time, or prolly a short play day, waiting without success for an access. Aslong theres no guarantee for the access everytime, i wouldnt set up a house there again. Or without a house and with usage of a guild storage inside the pallisades, i would had to allocate my stuff to at least 2 diff. places to have a guarantee to get decent equipped everytime.

    To deactivation of the guardzone:

    - idk what options are possible with TC. But which area holder are we, when we deactivate the guardzone and left the people there to die, when we move to keep.

    - 2-3 rly good pvper will crush 6 or more of us inside our own town and we could completly quit to live there, because we arent able to defend the crafter / butcher, or own asses there.

    - Thiefs and Griefer never were a real problem for me. Just be a bit more cautioness and remember all the mechanic´s and it cant be that much annoying. When they were a problem for you before, then you never want to live in unguarded Moh Ki.

    Something to correct, not: "Sure, sometimes, there might be a zerg or something that will come to Moh Ki and kill anyone"

    It must be: 80%-90% of the time, when more then 1 hostile is visiting Moh Ki, everyone inside dies, or has to flee.
    ----

    Another thing, because someone here wrote it again. Idk why there must be so much organisation about collecting stuff to give it crafter to equip our fighter for free and such things. Does rly someone need it? Seriously the people who told me before that they cant afford something were completly new to the game and i gave them stuff from my own pocket.

    I would like it if we could find a good balance between organisation/work and fun.

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  9. 12-06-2011 07:00 AM#9



    Knight Bachelor

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    Thank you for bringing this up. I believe we should hold a guild meeting for the MO community soon. This should be a hot topic.


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  10. 12-06-2011 07:18 AM#10

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    The problem with deactivating the GZ is it will bring an infestation of reds. It become another bank they can use to store the gear they take from us etc and like kranesh or gk will only be home to those enjoying pvp and lots of it. personally I hate this games pvp system so I dont pvp and I can only guess how many others do as well but no gz just means Ill have to find a new town.


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  11. 12-06-2011 07:27 AM#11

    Villein
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     Originally Posted by Otto Osterwind
    Thank you for bringing this up. I believe we should hold a guild meeting for the MO community soon. This should be a hot topic.
    I think Sir Bastor said something yesterday 'bout having a guildmeeting this sunday, so a post 'bout it should come up pretty soon.


      
     




  12. 12-06-2011 09:42 AM#12

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    I believe Henrik did mention they are looking at options for the keep gates, but they're focused on the AI patch right now and any fix to the gates would come after that.


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  13. 12-06-2011 01:13 PM#13
    Villein

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    Another thing I've noticed is that we're trying to split our resources in defending two places. We have a keep and palisade, but we don't use it because we have Moh Ki. We don't want to use it because we want to defend the people in Moh Ki. etc...

    Crafters can do everything they do in side the guardzone inside our palisade. Our palisade is located right next to a large number of granum and brown wood spawns, as well as two bear spawns and a cougar spawn + a bush pig spawn for skilling up. It is also real close to two priest (possible three in the future, when we get the Chaplain up and running).



    Our fixation on Moh Ki is a very, very sharp double-edged sword. If we ever get sieged, almost all of our fighters will not be in the Palisade, and it will be a lot harder to push away any attacks. But, another discussion for another time.

    On the other hand, we can more easily help newbies from Moh Ki, and it's easier to make money from butchery.

    I think we would have a better chance of helping newbies if we didn't teach them to fight with/live with the guardzone.


    To me, the guardzone is like training wheels. It's good when you're first starting out, but if you keep them on to long, they just hinder your ability to ride to your full potential. Sure, you might fall and scrap your arms and knees a few times(or a lot), but in the long run you'll be a better, more experienced rider.


    To be honest, I wouldn't care if Moh Ki had a guard zone or not if we were to make the Palisade the center of our operations.



    Edit: About making people grey, as far as I'm aware, that is not yet in the game. I believe there are only two options atm. You either can make it so criminals/reds can or can not rez inside the town and/or you can turn on or off the guardzone.

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  14. 12-06-2011 02:16 PM#14



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    The level of dedication and cooperation and forethought it would take to live as a group mostly out of the keep without a guarded city to supplement it might in practice be greater than any which most other guilds in this game who are used to living at will in guarded cities can imagine.

    Let's imagine it, because we might be one of the few organisations in Mortal Online who could manage it.

    It would mean keeping ourselves mostly outside of Moh-ki unless we go there in a force that can take on the task of clearing it like a dungeon, every time-- until the enemy gives up and goes elsewhere, on any given day.

    In this way, any activity that still did depend upon access to Moh-ki (as with other towns that will in the future have their guards turned off) could only be scheduled as contingent on the above circumstance. In every other way, going to Moh-ki to do something would be like popping over to Kranesh or to Gaul'Kor to use those towns' facilities is now-- with the difference that our many opponents and enemies don't exactly expect to see us in Kranesh or GK.

    Supplies of things that must be bought elsewhere would be better off laid in a week or so in advance.

    Butchering and other crafting tables can still be built in houses, and crushers, grinders, and grizzlies (CGG) can be acquired by battling into a town as a group or by sneaking at high risk into Moh-ki or some other lawless town and buying them there. However, the nearest press would still be in front of Moh-ki in a highly visible area and the second-closest out behind Bakti in an area already known for ganking. These devices probably cannot go unused in the pursuit of the best food and drinks for Mages and some others. (Cooking is at least one craft that isn't yet ready for "wolftime".)

    At present, when the Usual Gang Of Idiots (to borrow a phrase from MAD Magazine) is out in front of Moh-ki buzzing like a cloud of hornets at us, it is in some ways a good time to get out of some other side of the town and go gathering. When we retreat behind the relative safety of our palisade alone, this option disappears. The new "places they expect to find us" become all the resource points / town-ONLY facilities in a radius of Wyvern's Rest. The "times at which they expect to find us" are already known to them, but will come to include whenever we've had a successful, busy day of butchering and need to make a pack train to Moh-ki to sell the horseloads of proceeds.

    Also, while going *out* of a palisade is easy, a retreat to inside the walls when the neighbourhood gets restless or if one is being chased is no longer as simple as running over a guardzone line. It's a matter of someone else being there to open the door, and then there's the question of "do we open the door when there's any enemy outside", to which the answer should probably (and harshly) be "no". Thus, if you are "caught out", you're caught, and your resurrection and regearing is possibly limited to what you can get inside the Pale.

    These would not be easy rules to live with, and we have not even dealt yet with the question of letting apparently peaceful people who are not part of the Kingdom inside the walls. It's questionable if the sincerely innocent will be clamouring to do that, and unavoidable that some who want inside will be planning mischief.

    Surely I've overlooked a lot of additional potential problems as well as some further possible advantages.

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  15. 12-06-2011 02:23 PM#15



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     Originally Posted by Apoca Ailen
    Crafters can do everything they do in side the guardzone inside our palisade.
    No, not really (c.f. what I said about the press) and of course I know you'd be the first to volunteer to go with me and a bunch of fruit and stand there vigiliant while I stare at the appliance, then escort me back. (If only muse fruit (bananas) could be pressed, we'd surely have both Sir Otto and Sjt. Taliesin to join us.)

    But as much as I like the idea of independent living, there are small sacrifices of your convenience like the above to consider alongside the loss of training wheels.

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  16. 12-06-2011 03:22 PM#16

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    2 thoughts to add here:

    First, as soon as we have a guild storage inside the palisdes we can hand a palisade key to everyone (except trails maybe) who then store it in the storage. If needed you can put it out at any time and open the gates for someone else. A guild storage was planned anyways as I remember.

    Second, what is the problem of an enemy getting inside the palisades when they don't have a key? I mean they probably still can exploit through the walls but they can't do any more harm than destroying stuff in the palisade stocks since they can't open the gate from inside w/o a key, right?

    Imo we don't have to turn off the GZ in Moh ki but centering the guilds activity to within the palisades would be good for us in many ways (other fighting style, more community feeling, finally using what we have built... to just mention the most important). The only occasions we have to go to moh ki is for selling not used animal materials and to buy portable crushers, camp fires, bandages, pots, etc. - which can be well combined!

    Edit: oh well and for using the press... Is there no other viable stam food which can be made in a furnace or with a camp fire?

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  17. 12-06-2011 03:31 PM#17
    Villein

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     Originally Posted by Giumar Sturmzinne
    2 thoughts to add here:

    First, as soon as we have a guild storage inside the palisdes we can hand a palisade key to everyone (except trails maybe) who then store it in the storage. If needed you can put it out at any time and open the gates for someone else. A guild storage was planned anyways as I remember.

    Second, what is the problem of an enemy getting inside the palisades when they don't have a key? I mean they probably still can exploit through the walls but they can't do any more harm than destroying stuff in the palisade stocks since they can't open the gate from inside w/o a key, right?

    Imo we don't have to turn off the GZ in Moh ki but centering the guilds activity to within the palisades would be good for us in many ways (other fighting style, more community feeling, finally using what we have built... to just mention the most important). The only occasions we have to go to moh ki is for selling not used animal materials and to buy portable crushers, camp fires, bandages, pots, etc. - which can be well combined!

    Edit: oh well and for using the press... Is there no other viable stam food which can be made in a furnace or with a camp fire?
    You can make viable stam food with nothing but Rye flour, but you have to buy that from the grocer, as far as I know.

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  18. 12-06-2011 11:30 PM#18

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    imo living at our keep would be a challenge but a challenge i'm willing to take.. I agree with Genitar/Apoca about we're having a too easy time in Moh'ki.. Living outside of Moh'ki would be fun but hard work and if we work together it will work...

    and we could use armano's questsystem to transport our goods to Moh'ki to sell
    Always lurking...

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  19. 12-07-2011 12:01 AM#19



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     Originally Posted by Giumar Sturmzinne
    [W]hat is the problem of an enemy getting inside the palisades when they don't have a key? I mean they probably still can exploit through the walls...
    I doubt it; very much. Otherwise, nothing that's been in the walls all this time would still be there. I hardly ever get more optimistic about a thing as time goes on, but I'm beginning to think that our pali works as intended.


     Originally Posted by Giumar Sturmzinne
    ...but they can't do any more harm than destroying stuff in the palisade stocks since they can't open the gate from inside w/o a key, right?
    They can also kill us as we log in, as we craft, or as we deal with the treasurer-- particularly those characters without combat skills who've left Moh-ki for the relative safety of the Wessex palisade-- and logging out if someone is running loose inside our Pale will take 40 seconds, not nine.


     Originally Posted by Giumar Sturmzinne
    Imo we don't have to turn off the GZ in Moh ki but centering the guilds activity to within the palisades would be good for us in many ways (other fighting style, more community feeling, finally using what we have built... to just mention the most important). The only occasions we have to go to moh ki is for selling not used animal materials and to buy portable crushers, camp fires, bandages, pots, etc. - which can be well combined!
    Very true. This is how it will have to be, if we live there at all-- whether the guard zone in Moh-ki is off or ON.


     Originally Posted by Giumar Sturmzinne
    Edit: oh well and for using the press... Is there no other viable stam food which can be made in a furnace or with a camp fire?
    At no point did I mention a stamina component to fruit or vegetable juices.

    The most viable stam foods which are the regular rations (provided for free to the Wessex garrison and villeins) are prepared without heat from Rye flour which can be made from scratch -or- purchased at grocers at this time, OR without heat from Oat flour which is prepared with a grinder (which can be portable). Any grain can be similarly prepared.

    If heat were needed, we not only have campfires but also a furnace in one of the houses in the palisades, presently.

    Juices are something else entirely (if you want to know more about them, ask Jaipers, but only if you want to possibly hear a lot about them), and use a tool for which there is no portable substitute at this time; that's all. It's an SV thing; I think we all understand. We should have no trouble arranging their manufacture if people cooperate.


     Originally Posted by Zeeph Carnelian
    To the exlusive living inside the pallisades:

    - In the case that not everyone got a key for the pallisades, there will be the time, or prolly a short play day, waiting without success for an access. Aslong theres no guarantee for the access everytime, i wouldnt set up a house there again. Or without a house and with usage of a guild storage inside the pallisades, i would had to allocate my stuff to at least 2 diff. places to have a guarantee to get decent equipped everytime.
    Actually, it seems to me that you, me, and everyone needs at least triple redundancy as far as backup equipment and supplies even if we keep the guards in Moh-ki and live there. Thus, the preparations made in that direction so far.

    Probably, everyone should have a spare set of things in a house, in the guild storage, in another guild storage, in Moh-ki, and in a couple of other towns somewhere. Seriously.Quote
     Originally Posted by Zeeph CarnelianView Post
    To deactivation of the guardzone:

    * * *
    - 2-3 rly good pvper will crush 6 or more of us inside our own town and we could completly quit to live there, because we arent able to defend the crafter / butcher, or own asses there.

    - Thiefs and Griefer never were a real problem for me. Just be a bit more cautioness and remember all the mechanic´s and it cant be that much annoying. When they were a problem for you before, then you never want to live in unguarded Moh Ki.
    Regardless of how annoying it is or is not, it's just that disruptive.
    If you're crafting or at the mailbox or at a vendor, you're vulnerable to
    • outright attacks-- a single nekki with a worn short sword has nothing to lose if you guard him and all your materials in inventory to gain if he can get lucky and kill you before you can target him and call guards. My ancient Huergar cook has about 60 hp and is quite vulnerable to this. If he fails the first time, he can try it again. It's not even considered harassment.
    • pushing-- this can be reported to GMs but with proper timing the griefer loses nothing, while you lose time
    • opening of trade windows-- this makes you have to start all over with the vendor
    • pilfering and stealing-- self-explanatory. Not all people using appliances are highly intelligent in terms of attribute points (cf. Casilda and Okir).

     Originally Posted by Zeeph Carnelian
    Another thing, because someone here wrote it again. Idk why there must be so much organisation about collecting stuff to give it crafter to equip our fighter for free and such things. Does rly someone need it? Seriously the people who told me before that they cant afford something were completly new to the game and i gave them stuff from my own pocket.

    I would like it if we could find a good balance between organisation/work and fun.
    I will remember this when it comes time for you to draw your rations in either stamina or health foods. Your generous donation to the Mess Fund is always appreciated and goes straight back into the strength of our fighting men.

    Now, I have an ingenuous question about turning the guard zone on and off; how often and how fast can we do it?

    I'd assume that, the game being hardcore and all, it's an expensive decision not easy or quick to reverse. But who knows?

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  20. 12-07-2011 12:17 AM#20

    Villein
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    I like the idea of turning the guardzone off. It will teach our troops how to handle themselves, and will allow us to easily deal with griefers.

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  21. 12-07-2011 09:40 AM#21

    Clerk
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    Sorry I am to tired to read it all atm but still feel the urge to post something on this:

    It´s all decided long ago. We move to pallisades. I dont understand why its not happening. It was all discussed at last guild meeting.

    We got enough people to open the gates. I wonder why its not working. I open the gate if I am asked. Dont the other officers do it too? Where is the problem?

    Yes and we need a butcher table. Its not expensive. Who is responsible for building it? Butchering there is no prob. One third you trade for PP , one third you keep for crafters, one third you put in storage and make a caravan to mohki for selling from time to time.

    Why do we not move forward? Why are the same excuses coming up again and again?

    So we all should just log in kill 2 springbok, running in circles in front of mohki 15 minutes and then log off again, cause there is no npc in pallisades atm, waiting a wonder will happen and MO turns perfect?

    Please dont get this as threat or too much ranting, but thats not what interessts me and not why I joined wessex. I think I made efforts to get things going and I noticed other people too. But if this all is about springbok grind I am loosing patience and interesst :/


    P.S.: Turning GZ off is not an option in my opinion. We need it as save haven for newbies. If we controll mohki we can set the rules, outlaw, turn off when needed etc. Aim for us was and is living at pallisades

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  22. 12-08-2011 03:03 AM#22

    Villein
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     Originally Posted by Armano Linger
    Please dont get this as threat or too much ranting, but thats not what interessts me and not why I joined wessex. I think I made efforts to get things going and I noticed other people too. But if this all is about springbok grind I am loosing patience and interesst :/
    Its much more entertaining if you would do it like me:

    -Hunt half a horse bag Sprinbok carcasses and half Cougars. (you can see then double as much land of wessex as you would see if you only hunt springbok´s.
    - after that journey send the carcasses to your butcher
    - log to the butcher and butcher 6-7 minutes
    - relog to the fighter char
    - start running in circle´s inside of town
    - remember that you are pvp addicted and get out of town (just a few dozen meters), then ride or run around in circles infront of the town for like 5-15 minutes.
    - after the successfull patrol check the guild chat to find out if this game could bring some more fun today
    - get work offered
    - log out play another game just for the fun ;-))

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  23. 12-08-2011 04:37 AM#23

    Knight Bachelor





    Join Date:
    Nov 2009
    Posts:
    540

    Our priority now is the rebuilding of the Palisade grounds.
    All the tables needed, all the houses, will be decided by the Bailiff's court in the coming days. Input on placement and help with building up is what is needed.

    Lets leave this discussion alone for awhile. It will be 1 week or 2 before we can start going for Moh-ki again. Until then, focus on the task at hand.